Curse

Orbberius · Nov 26, 2005, 04:50 PM // 16:50

As we all know, Anet recently fixed the enemy AI so that they no longer blindly stand in AoE till they die. I think they had a lot of reasons for doing this, including generally making the AI slightly more sensible, increasing the difficulty of a too-easy game, thwarting bot-farmers and bringing the PvE experience more in line with PvP.

Good for them (and us), it's a positive step. Another thing they could do to acheive all these objectives would be to fix the loot distribution.

Anet should make items drop as much for you whether you're playing completely solo or whether you have 7 others (human/hench) with you.

It might even be a good idea to make items drop more for each player if you're playing with a human (not hench) group. This would act as a strong incentive for people to work together. Too many good players just decide to play on their own because they find the annoyances outweigh the rewards of playing in a group, on average. Maybe with a strong-enough incentive like this, people will generally get better at playing in groups and working together and the skill level can increase as the good players teach the crappy players how to play. Also, this gives an advantage to real players over the bot-farmers in that they can earn more rewards in the same amount of time.

This also brings PvE more in line with the PvP experience. Would anyone seriously consider bringing a group of henchies into Tombs? Are you rewarded less faction or fame if you have a full group compared to someone trying to solo the Hall of Heroes? The answer is no to both, so why is it the case in PvE?

This can also give more incentive to join a good guild to play with, get better at playing and eventually try some PvP with your guild; I mean, this game is called Guild Wars after all.

Medion · Nov 26, 2005, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Don't you think that this might cause 8 solo-farmers to team up, then seperate themselves in the area, so that they will clear it in a few minutes?? then heading on to the next area, when having cleared that one, go back to the other area again?

And about the bots used, I think they would just make groups of 8 bots dont you think?

Amn_En_Tarsath · Nov 26, 2005, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Basically there is no need for an increase in Loot. The Loot itself is fine. It allways was, even if it was nerfed or buffed. The problem was and still is the distribution of Items not being based upon the amount of players in your team.

The loot however should be based upon that.
The amount of persons you MUST have in your team is to be based upon the Teamsize you can have in the nearest outpost, if there are two - base it on the one you've last left.
So once you are going solo at Droknar, hunting down some Trolls you should only get 1/8 of the loot. If you're doing the same at Gates of Kryta, farming the UNdead you should only get 1/6 of the loot.

THIS would totally obliterate the need to solofarm areas. As it is now... people will find a way around ANY limitation and do the same thing they ever did... farm solo. Why? For one simple reason, it does pay of a lot more. By the factor x8 to be exact. Going in solo is 8 times more rewarding than going in with a full team. Well it is not exactly 8x, due to some increase in time taken.

Once this is fixed, once solofarming is unnecessary (but leave it possible... by any means, leave it possible!) the economy will slowly relax and calm down. Finally making things affordable without farming for ages.

Those folks saying "you have to work for your items" should answer me one single question: Why work, when you are playing a game? Why work, if you could just earn it by playing normally? Why frustrate yourself, if you could have a lot more fun without making it any easier?

edit @Medion
Make the loot distribution based upon Radar range... it allready is. Anyone outside of this range should only get 1/8 of the loot of the mobs he is killing (he doesn't get the loot of the mobs his party is killing)

Orbberius · Nov 26, 2005, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medion

Don't you think that this might cause 8 solo-farmers to team up, then seperate themselves in the area, so that they will clear it in a few minutes?? then heading on to the next area, when having cleared that one, go back to the other area again?

And about the bots used, I think they would just make groups of 8 bots dont you think?

First one: That sounds possible, I don't know how much of a problem it would be. The way it is right now, you get an 8-fold increase in loot drop from playing alone as opposed to in a group, which is a pretty huge incentive to solo-farm. If loot dropped equally for everbody whther they're in a group of 8 or a group of 1, 8 solofarmers teaming up won't get anywhere near that much of an increase in loot, so there's not as much incentive to do that. Because of this, hopefully the vast majority of people won't feel the need to do this kind of thing (there will always be some hardcore farmers).

Second one: That's ok, it would probably be easier for Anet to get them all at the same time that way. And it could be fairly difficult to get 8 of these bots to work together properly instead of just tripping over each other, so human intelligence will have a strong advantage.

Orbberius · Nov 26, 2005, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amn_En_Tarsath

snip

Did you read my post? You just repeated what I said... I only added that it might be good to add an extra incentive for playing with a human (not hench) group.

Amn_En_Tarsath · Nov 26, 2005, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orbberius

Did you read my post? You just repeated what I said... I only added that it might be good to add an extra incentive for playing with a human (not hench) group.

Yes i did read your post, but you did not read mine as you missed out some of my additions.

Orbberius · Nov 26, 2005, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amn_En_Tarsath

Yes i did read your post, but you did not read mine as you missed out some of my additions.

I said loot the current loot distribution inordinately favours solo farmers, you said loot distribution inordinately favours solo-farmers, I don't see the difference.

edit: Oh well, it doesn't matter anyhoo
No one will read the suggestion here in this forum section.

Amn_En_Tarsath · Nov 26, 2005, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orbberius

I said loot the current loot distribution inordinately favours solo farmers, you said loot distribution inordinately favours solo-farmers, I don't see the difference.

So? Yes you missed out points.. but what is the point of turning your own thread into a potential flamefest for no real reason? If my post REALLY is identical to that of yours, a moderator will simply delete it anytime soon. So what's the matter?

darkdragon99 · Nov 26, 2005, 06:05 PM // 18:05

i think this is a bad idea i persanily don't like to wait around looking for a group for an hour to go play. stop trying to nerf soloing some of use don't have all day to try and get a group and also some of us don't really care to farm either.

Amn_En_Tarsath · Nov 26, 2005, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdragon99

i think this is a bad idea i persanily don't like to wait around looking for a group for an hour to go play. stop trying to nerf soloing some of use don't have all day to try and get a group and also some of us don't really care to farm either.

This is not about nerfing solo farming. This is about the nerf of the "reason" to solofarm. And about your group argument -> Henchmen. It takes just as long to add those to your group as it takes to go out alone.

/edited the word "need" to read as "reason"

darkdragon99 · Nov 26, 2005, 06:25 PM // 18:25

i'm not a farmer but i really don't like the idea of not geting anyting when i'm out there alone. that sounds total bs and it would end up changed back within a week of being changed due to excessive complaints about it.

Orbberius · Nov 26, 2005, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdragon99

i'm not a farmer but i really don't like the idea of not geting anyting when i'm out there alone. that sounds total bs and it would end up changed back within a week of being changed due to excessive complaints about it.

...
You would get basically the same amount of loot whether you solo or not. Instead of getting 1/8th of the loot when you play in a group, you get the full 8/8ths of it. Everyone else also gets what they would have if they had been soloing. The game right now essentially punishes you for playing in a group. With this system, you earn the same whether you're in a group or not. I don't know if I can put it any more obviously, maybe somebody else can try.

Perhaps as an extra incentive for being in a human group, you could get a reasonably higher amount while in a human group, but nothing excessively unbalanced.

Tactical-Dillusions · Nov 26, 2005, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Even if all members received an item for each monster killed, i myself would still solo because it is far more enjoyable.
A party of humans or henchmen may well be able to clear an area quicker but i would gladly trade the speed of clearance and have an enjoyable time instead of all the bickering and bitching.

However, i don't think Anet would mess up the economy by implementing such actions because it would seriously screw the economy which they have battled for so long to balance.

Perhaps all BOSS monsters could drop something for everyone without damaging the economy. That's as far as i could see ArenaNet taking it though.

Loviatar · Nov 26, 2005, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orbberius

This also brings PvE more in line with the PvP experience. .

sigh

did it occure that for some people the last thing they want is the PVP experience? (actually maybe quite a few)

Orbberius · Nov 26, 2005, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tactical-Dillusions

Even if all members received an item for each monster killed, i myself would still solo because it is far more enjoyable.
A party of humans or henchmen may well be able to clear an area quicker but i would gladly trade the speed of clearance and have an enjoyable time instead of all the bickering and bitching.

However, i don't think Anet would mess up the economy by implementing such actions because it would seriously screw the economy which they have battled for so long to balance.

Perhaps all BOSS monsters could drop something for everyone without damaging the economy. That's as far as i could see ArenaNet taking it though.

Well, if it's really more enjoyable to you, then go ahead and continue. The idea of there being a bit higher rewards are meant as an incentive, meant to bring more balance into how the game is played, not as a command to play only in human groups of 8. Solo'ers are not being punished under this new system like group-players are under the current system. And I really doubt this would "ruin" the economy. Everbody cries out that this change or that change will "ruin the economy", but it really never happens.

Loviatar - while I admit I do think PvE is a training ground for PvP, I don't see how this system makes it any worse for PvErs. If anything, they are getting more rewards for playing PvE well in groups.

Even if you personally are a PvE-only person, I hope you can appreciate that a new player, who might not try any real PvP until very late in the game, will find (as things are now) PvP completely different from the way things in PvE work. I don't think you can deny that: as it is, PvE and PvP are so different as to make it difficult for someone new to the game to adjust from playing one from playing the other. If the two experiences are more complementary to each other, it just makes for a more complete, better game.

Again, benefits to PvP aside, I ask: how would this make PvE worse off?? In fact it makes PvE'ers better off...You can still play only by yourself or whatever if you so choose. It doesn't suddenly change the PvE experience into the PvP experience. It brings the best parts of PvP (teamwork and strategy) into PvE. But if you don't want to play and plan together in a group, then don't... you're not being forced to.

Slade xTekno · Nov 26, 2005, 08:49 PM // 20:49

This thread boggles my mind on so many levels...

How would each individual get a full 8/8ths of the drops? Would each monster drop 8 items?
How would this work with green items?

Your logic is flawed. This game does not punish you for being in a group. You are simply offered a choice - more drops or more help [and, in most cases, less time taken]. Plus, you have an equal chance of getting the items that everyone else in your group does.
A great example of this is UW trapper groups. Yes, a pair will get more drops per person than a group of five, but it will take them a lot longer than a 5-man group. If you think about it, the fact that the 5-man finishes before the pair demonstrates the lower percentage of drops is made up for by the lower time spent in the area.
If your "fix" was implemented, you would have people tearing through high level areas gathering the same loot they would solo-farming, but at a much faster rate. What do you think would happen to the economy when the greater multiple of goods and gold that result from this change enter the market?

Henchmen are there are substitutes for the times we cannot find competant human players. Their AI sucks enough as it is, we don't need to nerf the drop rate we receive with them.

Since when did playing with a PvE PUG not involve strategy? In later areas, strategy must be outlined before entering, or you else you suffer a high risk of being torn apart. Unlike PvP, henchmen are a perfectly viable option in PvE. Although their AI is rudimentary at best, they still attack a called target and heal, something I haven't seen in some PUGs.

Orbberius · Nov 26, 2005, 09:21 PM // 21:21

I guess your post would be true if it was actually a balanced trade between number of drops and time taken. If you really, actually think about it, one person in a group of 8 can't even come close to matching a solo-er in terms of gold/hour. It doesn't take a solo-er with the right build 8 times the length of time to do something as it would take an 8-man group. Yes it takes more time, but not 8 times more. Like I said, if it did, your argument would be correct.

As you go start comparing 7v2 and 6vs4 and other combinations, yes they would get closer in terms of gold/hour, but that's kind of obvious. This is from my knowledge pre-Nov17th update, I haven't PvE'd since then.

And yes, monsters would drop 8 items.

And... everyone would get a bit richer. People who play in groups would get relatively richer than people who don't play in groups. Maybe the value of a unit of gold would drop, but relatively speaking, there will be more balance between solo-ers and group players.

darkdragon99 · Nov 26, 2005, 09:29 PM // 21:29

i like the idea of geting more for puting in more work when you going solo your doing everything yourself and taking greater risk. y the hell shouldn't the solo players get more items ever heard of hazard pay. some spots now are a pain in the butt to solo and when you do you get all that you put in out in items and gold.

Orbberius · Nov 26, 2005, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdragon99

i like the idea of geting more for puting in more work when you going solo your doing everything yourself and taking greater risk. y the hell shouldn't the solo players get more items ever heard of hazard pay. some spots now are a pain in the butt to solo and when you do you get all that you put in out in items and gold.

Lol farmers are putting their lives in danger? How so? By copy-pasting a build they found on a website and clicking the buttons in the right order? Yeah, I'm sure they put in a lot of work into making that build. And of course they're risking sooo much, right? The idea of high-risk high-gain applies in the REAL WORLD where you're putting your REAL MONEY into an investment that might or might not even give you your money back. Online goldfarmers don't put ANYTHING on the line when they farm. There IS no risk.

darkdragon99 · Nov 26, 2005, 09:42 PM // 21:42

i have no so called build i'm not talkin about your stupid freaking farmers who do nothing but go into and area kill everything and leave and come back. i'm talkin about the ppl who are going through the game solo and geting more money in the prosses some ppl don't farm you know. your trying lump all of us together and i don't like it.